Friday, June 06, 2008

Do democracies attack peaceful protestors?

Israel does. Beginning in January of 2005 the Palestinian village of Bil'in has held weekly protests against the apartheid wall being constructed right through the village center. Despite the nonviolent nature of the rallies, the attendance of international and Israeli activists, favorable rulings by the Israeli Supreme Court and the International Court of Justice the construction of the wall and an Israeli settlement continue.

Each week for the past three years the non-violent demonstrators have been attacked by Israeli soldiers using tear gas, rubber-coated steel bullets, and stun grenades. This week's protest was saw the participation of many prominent internationals who were wrapping up a conference supporting the non-violent actions of the villagers in the face of a brutally racist militarily machine. Nobel laureate Mairead Corrigan, Vice President of the European Parliament Luisa Morgantini, and Italian Judge Julio Toscano were among dozens injured when the Israeli army showered around 300 protesters with tear gas, rubber-coated steel bullets, and grenades.


Bar Kochba said...

Apartheid Wall. Ha! You are a fool.

The wall is not built to keep the Arabs in, but to keep terrorists out. If the Arabs would stop attacking and murdering Jews, there would be no need for this wall. A Jew's right not be blown up far outweighs an Arab's right not to be inconvenienced.

Karin said...

Bar Kochba ... after having read your comment I am very much tempted to lose my good manners but you know what? You're not worth it!

Who do you think you are? You are nothing but a racist whinzling who has the totally idiotic vision of Zionist supremacy!

I tell you here and now that the tide is turning, the world is slowly but surely waking up and recognising more and more the horrendous crimes YOU ZIONISTS commit against humanity! If "Jews" (as YOU put it) wouldn't brutally occupy an entire population and oppress every single aspect of their lives, no Palestinian would have a reason to resist and fight for his rights (or don't they have rights in your eyes??) and for his land!

LIFT THE OCCUPATION OF PALESTINIAN LAND AND THE SIEGE ON GAZA ... and things would look MUCH different in no time!

I purposely say ZIONISTS as I have nothing whatsoever against Jews in a religious context. Jews who follow their religious laws are good people - I know plenty of them!

Listen good .. what goes around, comes around or in other words, every ACTION triggers a RE-ACTION and once this will inevitably one day begin to happen, I won't have any desire to be in your shoes as not even YOU will be able to manipulate this law of nature to your benefit! It originates at a MUCH higher force ... a force YOU will have to face one day and take responsibility for your actions!

Then you'll have time without end to do your little dance in hell ...

Karin said...

y_a ... there's a video on my blog ... have a look!

Bar Kochba said...

Which crimes again humanity? Surely you must mean living. It so offends you when Jews take breaths of air. Anti-Zionism is anti-semitism. It is anti-semitic to deny Jews the right of self-determination which is extended to all peoples.

Israel occupies nothing. In '67, Israel liberated Judea, Samaria, Jerusalem, along with Gaza, Sinai and the Golan. Judea and Samaria form the Jewish biblical homeland. It belongs to no state. The Jordanians were occupying it in '67 and now Israel controls it. There has NEVER, EVER been a "Palestinian" state in that area. In fact, there has NEVER been a "Palestinian" state EVER. The only reason why Gaza is "besieged" is because the Arabs insist on firing rockets at schools and homes in Sderot and Ashkelon. Israel provides Gaza with all of its water, electricity, money, food, etc. Why don't the Gazans ask their Egyptian brethren to help? Or is it only the Jews' obligations to arm their enemies?

young_activist said...

I've already been over many of the human rights abuses with you BK, so I'm not going to repeat them here. If you're really curios you can look it up on B'TSELEM or Amnesty International, the links are on my sidebar. However, if you chose to ignore the reality on the ground just to suite your own fantasy then its not really my job to educate you. I suppose that all of the anti-Zionist Jews are anti-Semitic too? Actually from the perspective of a linguist it is the Zionists who are anti-Semitic because they are racists against the Arabs, who are a Semitic people. Get real!

I suppose you don't consider the Palestinians a people. That smacks of racism. Fortunately, many of the early Zionists were a little more candid than you are and they openly established the racist, imperial nature of Zionism.

Where the Palestinians firing rockets at the Israelis when the Zionists conspired to seize their land? NO! This blame the victims attitude is traditionally the domain of anti-Semitics, which I suppose technically you are one. No one blamed the Jews for the Holocaust because of the actions of the courageous resistance fighters, many of whom have since endorsed the cause of Palestinian self-determinations and rejected Zionism. But, I suppose their opinion doesn't matter to you since they are anti-Semitic.

The Palestinians aren't asking for charity, they are asking for justice. The Israelis are not so generous as you imply, except perhaps with death and rockets, but even if they were ten times as generous you say that is still only small compensation for the destruction of their livelihoods by the Zionist racists.

Paul said...

Bar Kochba made serious issues here that none of you addressed all you did was call him a racist. The 'wall' has been built to stop terrorist attacks. Terrorist attacks that the Palestinian authorities proved utterly unwilling to stop themselves. Would anyone address that point or will you just resort to name calling?

young_activist said...

I didn't address that issue here because I have already discussed it extensively with BK on his blog.

The wall is built outside of Israel's internationally borders and it does not separate Palestinians from Israelis, it separates Palestinians from Palestinians. If the purpose of the wall was security and not annexation then why is it being built through Palestinian land?

Paul said...

The wall has stopped suicide bombings - FACT. The PA could not bring itself to do that, hence the wall was built which does protect Israel's citizens. Its purpose was security and it has become a sad reflection of what is necessary in the face of intransigence form the PA.

young_activist said...

If the purpose of the wall is security then why is it being built on Palestinian and not Israeli land?

Bar Kochba said...

The 'Green Line' is not an internationally recognized border. It was simply the armistice line between Israel and Jordan. Judea and Samaria aka the West Bank do not belong to any country. Jordan renounced all claims to that territory. Therefore, calling it "Palestinian" land is erroneous. There is Israeli land and land without any sovereingty under Israeli control. As such, Israel's government felt that if it would build the fence following the 'Green Line', it would be establishing facts on the ground, so to speak, and confirming this as a future border. As Israel’s Supreme Court noted in its ruling on the route of the barrier, building the fence along that line would have been a political statement and would not accomplish the principal goal of the barrier, namely, the prevention of terror.

The route of the fence must take into account topography, population density, and threat assessment of each area. To be effective in protecting the maximum number of Israelis, it also must incorporate some of the settlements in the West Bank.

It is only a wall in small areas. Only a tiny fraction of the total length of the barrier (less than 3% or about 10 miles) is actually a 30 foot high concrete wall, and that is being built in three areas where it will prevent Palestinian snipers from around the terrorist hotbeds of Kalkilya and Tul Karm from shooting at cars as they have done for the last three years along the Trans-Israel Highway, one of the country's main roads. The wall also takes up less space than the other barriers, only about seven feet, so it did not have a great impact on the area where it was built. In areas where the fence was built, terror attacks have decreased by 90%.

young_activist said...

You're right Bar, I seem to have forgotten that Israel can do whatever it wants because Palestinians don't exist and their blood is worthless and Israel can do whatever it wants because it has a divine estate agent that has given it immunity from any code of morality.

I am a bit better versed in Zionist propaganda than I was a view months ago. You really need to get off your talking points and actually learn about the conflict instead of seeking out 'evidence' that fits in with your preconceived notion of what Israel is, or more accurately what you want it to be.

The international community (and the Israeli courts in cases where it is convenient for factories, for example, to not have to comply with Israeli law) does in fact recognize the Green Line as the border of a Palestinian state, but if there is fact no border than why do only Israelis have the exclusive right to the whole of the territory compromising Israel/Palestine? Oh that's right, you think that only Jews should have political rights in Israel and Palestine and you wonder why we say that you advocate apartheid!

This wall desecrates Christian religious sites, cuts farmers off from their lands, and divides communities in two. How can you say it has no impact? You really should try to understand an issue before you parrot the Zionist propaganda.

As early as May 2004, the fence construction had already destroyred over 100,000 olive and fruit trees, 75 acres of greenhouses and 23 miles of irrigation pipes. At that time it occupued neraly 4,000 acres of confiscated land. 15 communities with a combined population of over 130,000 people are going to be affected by the wall. The wall also separates communities from their water resources and will prevent over 200,000 Palestinians from receiving medical treatment inside Israel. In addition the wall, along with the occupation, severely represses Palestinian economic activity, a situation which will create more poverty and violence.

Bar Kochba said...

Silly little boy.

The security fence is for safety purposes, and not political ones. The Israeli Supreme court argued that the fence should not follow the "green line" noting that “it is the security perspective — and not the political one — which must examine a route based on its security merits alone, without regard for the location of the ‘green line.’”

The Justices also concluded “it is permitted, by the international law applicable to an area under belligerent occupation to take possession of an individual’s land in order to erect a separation fence upon it, on the condition that this is necessitated by military needs. To the extent that construction of the Fence is a military necessity, it is permitted, therefore, by international law. Indeed, the obstacle is intended to take the place of combat military operations, by physically blocking terrorist infiltration into Israeli population centers.”

If Arab terrorism would stop, the fence would have no need.

You are wrong when you claim that Arab poverty is at the root of terrorism. Arafat was a multi-millionaire who stole form his people and funded terror. (Bin Laden is a multi-millionaire as well. The London Tube bombers were all middle-class assimilated British Muslims). Many terrorists come from a decent, middle-class background. The root of terrorism is the Islamic hatred of non-Muslims, in particular the Jews. Both Hamas and Fatah derive their mission to destroy Israel from the Qur'an and Islamic holy texts. (If you don't believe me, check their founding documents.) That's why any compromise to them only encourages terror. Sucide bombings only began after Oslo, the rocket attacks on Sderot intensified after the Gaza pullout and the Second Lebanon War was only made possible by Israel's withdrawal from Southern Lebanon in the 80s.

young_activist said...

Palestinian violence is different from other forms of extremism in the region. It is more mainstream and is very much driven by poverty, right or wrong when you are a brutally repressive occupying power anything that goes wrong tends to be blamed on you. In Palestine poverty creates misery which creates both anger and a "I have nothing left to live for, but much to die for" mentality. Arafat was a political leader, he did what he did for politics, Arafat was a political leader, not an ordinary Palestinian. To use him as an example of a typical Palestinian makes no sense.

If terrorism comes from Islamic ideology then how do you explain non-Islamic terrorism both within and without Palestine. After all, it was a Christian who founded the PFLP.

You speak as if you have a respect for international law. We both know that is not the case. At the end of the day, no matter what arguments you make, you will support Israel simply because it is the Jewish state no matter what it does. Israel could be sending the Arabs to the gas chambers and you still wouldn't criticize it. After all, you are defending an attack on non-violent protesters. If you defend such attacks on civilians then you really don't have any right to be complaining about suicide bombing and rocket attacks.

At any rate, the Israeli Supreme Court has no right to rule on Palestinian matters. An international court has ruled that what Israel is doing with the wall, as well as on many other matters, is illegal. Maybe if you actually had some respect for international law your argument would carry a little more weight.

Bar Kochba said...

Your comment about gas chambers is simply obscene. I am on the side of Israel, not only because I am a Jew, but as a human being. Israel has contributed much, much more than its share to the good of humanity. It has taken in hundreds of thousands of refugees, built a modern and vibrant democracy, and is a world leader in science and technology, all in 60 years. Israel is far from perfect (I criticize Israel's gov't non-stop on my blog), and yet it is by far one of the most moral and humane countries on the planet. The Jews have always been the canary in the coal mine. They were with the Fascists, the Nazis, the Communists and same today with the Islamists. Israel is reviled throughout the Islamic world, Jews are demonized in mosque sermons and Islamic immigrants have beaten up and attacked many Jews in European countries and Canada. This is not a Jewish problem. It begins with the Jews but does not end with them.

I'm glad that you recognize the widespread influence and acceptability of Pseudostinian terrorism and extremism. (If you accept that the majority of them support terror, then should they not all held accountable?) This is a society that teaches its children to hate. Palestinian textbooks are full of anti-semitism and intolerance towards other faiths. (You can check Children's shows exhort kids to blow themselves up. When Israel abandonned the Gaza strip, it left behind the green houses of the Jews of Gush Katif, which would have been an economic blessing to the Arabs. Instead of using them, they destroyed them in a fanatical fury. The streets in Gaza overflow with sewage because the Arabs used the pipes to build rockets. This is a society rasied and indoctrinated in hatred and death, that builds nothing but only destroys.

I would recommend that you learn some Israeli history. The brutal attacks started long before any "Occupation". The Arabs murdered hundreds of Jews in pogroms in 1920-21 and 1929. What were they upset about then, the "occupied lands" of '67?